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“CRTs as “Stretch IRA” Substitutes”

2-15-24

Host: Jonathan I. Shenkman, President & Chief Investment Officer, ParkBridge Wealth Management

(Jonathan@ParkBridgeWealth.com)

Speaker: Evan Unzelman, Chief Executive Officer, CRT Experts LLC

(evan@crt-experts.com)

 

Synopsis

Without planning, the SECURE Act requires heirs to withdraw and pay tax on an inherited IRA within ten years. If implemented correctly, designating a charitable remainder trust (CRT) as the beneficiary of an existing IRA creates more lifetime spendable income for heirs, reduces income taxes during the crucial ten years following the client’s death, and maximizes overall family wealth. Evan Unzelman, founder, and CEO of CRT Experts, discusses how it works, who's a fit, and how the planning is implemented.

 

Webinar Transcript

Jonathan Shenkman: Good morning and welcome to the Park Bridge Wealth Management, Winter Webinar Series. This program is entitled CRTs as Stretch Ira, substitutes for those who don't know me. My name is Jonathan Shankman. I'm the president and chief investment officer of Parkbridge wealth management. In that role I serve in a fiduciary capacity. Tell my clients achieve their financial objectives.

 Jonathan Shenkman: The goal of my programs is to bring professionals together to help them better serve their clients. This is done by educating attendees on the latest topics, in in wealth, planning, and by encouraging collaboration between a clients, Attorney, CPA and financial Advisor, where appropriate

Jonathan Shenkman: my practice, focused on working with high net, with families, businesses, and not for profits. I manage individual investment portfolios, trust accounts, corporate retirement plans and endowments, and help my clients, achieve their financial goals. In addition to the 20 or so events I run every year. I also do a fair amount of writing on the topics of investing and financial planning. You can read my work in a variety of periodicals, including Barron's CNBC, Forbes, Kiplinger, the Wall Street Journal, the CPA Journal Trust in Estates magazine to name just a few.

 Jonathan Shenkman: You could see all my work on my website at Parkbridge. wealth.com forward slash articles, or by following me on social media at Jonathan on money. Additionally, you can check on my weekly, podcast which is also called Jonathan on money, and you could listen that on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcast

 Jonathan Shenkman: today, we're privileged to hear from Evan Unzelman, who's the chief executive officer of CRT experts, Llc. Evan has over 20 years of specialized experience with charitable remainder trust, and is largely regarded as one of the nation's foremost experts on Crts, one of the last over the last 2 decades he has reviewed thousands of CRTs and worked with tens of thousands of CRT beneficiaries, their families, and their advisors on all facets of CRT, planning

 Jonathan Shenkman: from upfront design to complex CRT administration to Cr. T. Secondary planning. Evan provides unique insight at every stage of the CRT life cycle. Evans experience with CRT's secondary planning, such as sales, gifts, and exchanges of CRT income interests is particularly deep

 Jonathan Shenkman: prior to forming CRT experts. He was the president of the charitable remainder planning firm where he helped develop the secondary market fees for CRT income interest and personally oversaw the successful completion of sale transactions for thousands of CRT beneficiaries across the Us. Evan is a trusted resource for trust and estates, Attorney CPAs and financial advisors on all aspects of CRT planning, and with that introduction I'll now turn the program over.

 Evan.

 Evan Unzelman: Thank you, Jonathan.

 Evan Unzelman: It's great to be here. It's always good to see you, and excited to talk today about

 Evan Unzelman: CRTs as stretch Ira substitutes. I'm sure everyone on this webinar is aware of the secure act ending the stretch. Ira, probably most of you are aware of how a charitable remainder trust a CRT can replace that stretch, and many of you have probably implemented the planning.

 Evan Unzelman: and we'll certainly talk about that here today sort of what I call the basics, the you know how it works, what the implementation options are, how to go about using each one of those implementation options which clients are fits which clients are not fits. But where I can provide I think, for everyone on this webinar. Really, the most value is

 Evan Unzelman: going beyond that when we have a client who decides, yes, this is this is what I want to do that. The I’ll want to restore the stretch on the IRA sort of how I've always thought about my Ira is not just during my lifetime. But when I pass on my kids taking that income over their remaining lifetimes.

 Evan Unzelman: the CRT. Is a way to restore that

 Evan Unzelman: the next step, which is okay. So what should that CRT look like? How should that CRT be designed? Something that we've seen? We've looked at a lot of CRTs over the last 2 decades, and

 Evan Unzelman: something we saw along before the secure act and using CRTs to replace the old stretch. IRA is

 Evan Unzelman: very often the client is not given the flexibility that they should be given with respect to the trust. And what I mean by that is, CRTs are. There's a lot of different things and features. You can work into the CRT design under section 6 for the internal revenue code. And those that flexibility is very often not fully utilized, the clients not made aware of it.

 

 Evan Unzelman: And if the client's not aware that I can add my children or grandchildren as as as income beneficiaries. I can defer income during certain periods of the CRT. If they don't know it exists, they're not going to ask about it. And so that's where I want to focus for the back half of the presentation. And I think where, in terms of the takeaways, what will be quite useful for everyone on the webinar this morning is is around that CRT design and maximizing.

 

 Evan Unzelman: the flexibility down the line for the clients and for the clients heirs.

Evan Unzelman: Okay. So, the problem we all know the secure act ended the stretch. Ira, the beneficiaries now must withdraw all the assets within 10 years, and of course, those distributions are going to be attacked at the highest applicable rates. This.

Evan Unzelman: whether you want to call it a tax disaster, I've heard well, secure act is effectively a large tax on an Ira. After the death of a client. However, you want to describe it for many clients, for the clients who had planned on the Ira being stretched out over their heirs. Lifetimes.

Evan Unzelman: This creates a problem. And fortunately, though we, with the charitable remainder trust, have a pretty natural solution.

 Evan Unzelman: when we think about an Ira or a 4 one k. Really at at the at the core of it is tax efficiency. Tax efficiency is what's driving the value of the Ira of 4 one K. We're investing pre-tax dollars in a tax-free account.

Evan Unzelman: And even though the secure act ended the stretch so that Ira, that tax-free account can't be stretched anymore. What we can do with the CRT is replace that with the charitable remainder. Trust the CRT is an exempt trust.

 Evan Unzelman: And so, what we can do is upon the clients. Death we can.

Evan Unzelman: The full value of the Ira can go into the CRT with no income tax like the Ira, the CRT is able to grow those assets tax-free. The investment advisor has that the benefit of no tax drag on the investments moving forward.

Evan Unzelman: and also, like and like an Ira, the distributions to the beneficiaries of a CRT are taxable.

 Evan Unzelman: Unlike an Ira, though with the CRT we can eventually get into capital gain on those with respect to the taxation on those distributions. So if we have, we'll look at an example where we have a million dollars going from an Ira into a CRT upon the Ira Ira owner's death

 Evan Unzelman: with a CRT, the the way that the taxation works. It's worst in first out.

Evan Unzelman: So meaning we've got a million dollars of ordinary income that needs to be distributed out but once that's distributed out.

 Evan Unzelman: and as long as that the assets in the CRT are invested for capital gain, we can then start taking a good portion of that income at the capital gains rate. So usually, it's about 15 years into the CRT. When we can get through that ordinary income. Then we can start taking it at at the capital gains rate. So we, as we'll see, we actually have some advantages from a tax standpoint down the road with the CRT

Evan Unzelman: in terms of the you can see the PLRs up on the screen. There were some during the 1990 S. There were several IRS rulings that confirm that a qualified trust like a CRT could be the beneficiary of a qualified retirement plan, and of course we know that once the assets are inside of a CRT, the CRT is exempt from tax.

Evan Unzelman: So what we've been able to do here is restore the stretch. So the CRT is preserving the pre-tax dollars in a tax-free account.

Evan Unzelman: The trust is growing. Tax free under section 664 the errors are getting significantly more money. We'll look at an example later to look at. Well, just how much more and I'll also say it's

Evan Unzelman: when we look at the lens through which the decision is made. It's not. And in a lot of cases it's option A option. B. What's the

Evan Unzelman: what's the most after? You know what creates the most after tax value in this case for the errors? In this case it's usually not that

 Evan Unzelman: numerical usually in in this case it's a client that says, either. I'm fine with my kids, getting the getting all the all the assets immediately, regardless of the tax costs, or we have the client that

Evan Unzelman: previously would have done the stretch. Ira, that says I, would rather

Evan Unzelman: extend that income stream over my my kid's lifetime, my grandkids lifetime, and enjoy some of the other benefits of the of the CRT

Evan Unzelman: asset protection, adding multiple generations onto the CRT, and with as long as the planning here the CRT

Evan Unzelman: is done through a testamentary trust, everything is revocable during the clients life. So they do have to take action during their lifetime, but they can make changes as changes occur. Grandkids are born. They want to take beneficiaries off add beneficiaries. We can do that. So it's very flexible. During the clients. Lifetime

Evan Unzelman: in terms of you know where to fit, where it's not a fit, you know where? Because we're using a CRT, we there, there are sort of a there is sort of a threshold

Evan Unzelman: we want to be. We usually sets about $500,000 in in, in retirement plan assets, when we start to look at this with the CRT and we do the. This does require trust administration. So we need an administrator. In some cases were paying for corporate trustee. So we have some costs. That sort of put that a minimum threshold on in terms of the assets. Where we start to look at this. Of course, clients are going to start looking at this as they get older. So what we'll typically, say is 50 and older

Evan Unzelman: 500,000 or more in expected or current and expected retirement plan assets. And of course, they've got the the retirement plan.

Evan Unzelman: Who's not a fit? Clients who are going to have are going to use most or all of the retirement plan themselves during their own lifetimes, or clients who want to get their heirs all the money very quickly immediately upon death, and they're not concerned about the tax cost, you know. Obviously, those are not going to be fits for restoring this, the stretch and stretching that income out over multiple generations.

Evan Unzelman: So 2 points here, and the second is what will bridge us into the back half. And some of this flexibility that I want to talk about. But first is, you know, the IRA owner

 Evan Unzelman: does need to take action during their lifetime, you know. I’m sure no one would argue on who's on the webinar here. One of the biggest hindrances to implementing planning is just inertia is getting the client to pull the trigger. Where here we do have some natural urgency in the sense that you know the client cannot wait

Evan Unzelman: to do this after their death. This has to be existing upon their death. So that does create some urgency for the client to take action ideally now. But certainly, you know within their lifetime be before death. So there's in terms of how do we implement the planning? So there are 3

Evan Unzelman: general options ways. We can do this, an unfunded trust, a funded trust or testamentary trust.

Evan Unzelman: So with a funded CRT, and this could be an existing CRT, most CRTs within the trust instrument will allow for future contributions. Additional contributions to the CRT. Moving forward as long as the CRT contains that language.

Evan Unzelman: That CRT can be named as the beneficiary of the IRA.

 

Evan Unzelman: In each of these cases.

 

Evan Unzelman: at the end result is this, the trust is named, whether it's a testamentary, unfunded, or funded, is named as the beneficiary of the IRA. So we're going to go to the custodian of the Ira and fill out the beneficiary designations, form and name the trust as the beneficiary of the of the retirement plan

Evan Unzelman: unfunded. CRT, we don't see this a whole lot, but it's it is an option, so we can fund it. Create the CRT. Now fund it nominally

Evan Unzelman: in some states, you know, it's, you know, you staple the 10 or $20 build or the trust instrument, but at the end of the day.

Evan Unzelman: in these are qualified in terms of these are qualified trusts as far as State statute goes, but under the Federal statute there's no requirement for administration.

Evan Unzelman: and so that makes these doable in the sense that if we had $100 in a CRT, and we have to pay $500 here to administer it. That's not going to work. So they are not required that we won't have that administration requirement so that would work what we would typically recommend, though. And our experience. What's most common is to do this through a through a Testament trust, or a will a revocable trust? Oh, well, sorry

Evan Unzelman: and so the way that we will go about this is the first thing the client needs to do, and this is what will bridge us into the design of the CRT is, they need to think about the trust designations. Who do they want to be the income beneficiaries and encouraging the client to think. And first making the client aware but encouraging them to. Let's add as many beneficiaries’ family members as we can. Let's extend the duration of the CRT as long as we can.

Evan Unzelman: Thinking about the structure of the CRT there's different types of CRTs, NIMCRUTs and NYCRUTs and CRATs and FLIPCRUTs, and so walking the client through the different options that they have their different payout rate options. Who do they want to be the trustee charitable beneficiaries. Once we have all that information we can put together. The trust which is not effective, which is, does the effective date

Evan Unzelman: is when the trust is funded with the Ira. So until the client, the Ira owner, dies, and the Ira assets go into the CRT. That the trust is

Evan Unzelman: fully revocable and the client can make changes. It's flexible during the client's lifetime.

Evan Unzelman: Okay? So the CRT design

Evan Unzelman: sort of the way that I would couch. The larger discussion here is just maximizing flexibility for the for the client.

Evan Unzelman: We're going to talk specifically about the top 2 bullets that you see up on the screen duration and deferral but really, when we're looking at a CRT, we want to think about this

Evan Unzelman: in all the CRT components. We look at trusteeship. So

Evan Unzelman: because this is the CRT's grantor is not the income beneficiary.

Evan Unzelman: the IRA owner may want to restrict some flex flexibility with respect to trusteeship. The trustee is the foundation manager in the foundation context. The trustee has control of the investments the trustee has control of. The Administrator. Who whoever's administering the the, the return. They have the compliance responsibility. Some clients may want the trusteeship to rest with the corporate trustee.

Evan Unzelman: Most clients will are okay with that with their heirs being the trustee of the CRT same thing with the charitable beneficiary. In many cases we see that the donor advise Fund, the family donor Advise fund named as the beneficiary. But is the client? Does the does the Ira owner want to set in stone?

Evan Unzelman: Who the charitable beneficiary is, or are they okay with their heirs, their children and grandchildren having the flexibility to adjust the charity during their lifetimes, or the fixed term.

Evan Unzelman: So, thinking about those things, just making sure that we look at everything that's available within. Section 664 making the client aware of all of all of those, all of that flexibility, all of those options, and so that they can put in place a CRT that is designed. That's really custom built to maximize what they're trying to do.

Evan Unzelman: So to sort of weave into the what we'll talk about here for the balance of the presentation we'll use. A working example. So we have 2 families. Here we have family a

Evan Unzelman: who inherits the Ira within that 10 year allowed stretch period. In many cases it's

Evan Unzelman: Family B. We're using the CRT, so that Ira, we're going to assume everything's identical in terms of it. We've got a million dollars going into the CRT family. A is going to take that 1 million dollars over the 10 year stretch period.

Evan Unzelman: We're going to look at what does you know

Evan Unzelman: in terms of the total family income. How do these 2 options compare? We'll look later, more specifically at the structure of the CRT, because this will. This will help us when we're looking at maximizing duration and deferral. But what we've looked at here in many cases when we've got the client who is looking at utilizing this full stretch using the CRT. Now.

Evan Unzelman: in many cases there's not a lot. There's not much desire for income from the surviving spouses standpoint. So instead of rolling the IRA to the spouse, they'll

Evan Unzelman: name the CRT as the beneficiary of the Ira. The Ira assets

Evan Unzelman: upon the Ira owner's death will go into the CRT. The spouse will be the initial income beneficiary, but in many cases, and we'll look at later how this is possible

Evan Unzelman: the spouse will put the trust into deferral. The spouse isn't actually going to take income from the CRT which allows the investment advisor just to grow the trust tax free for some deferral period, and that can really augment the income that's distributed to the children and grandchildren later on. So we'll look at that later. But that's how we're structuring family B. CRT, here.

Evan Unzelman: You know. Normally, we would stagger this on different graphs. But I've overlaid them here, because at one we're trying to keep on schedule. But then 2, as I mentioned earlier this.

Evan Unzelman: it's not.

Evan Unzelman: We'll look at the numbers. But this, this isn't usually how the decision would be made. Usually the decision, as I mentioned earlier, is, do you want the kids to get the income, or to get all of the assets upon your death immediately, regardless of the tax costs?

 

Evan Unzelman: Or are you interested in stretching that out, stretching the taking the Ira assets and putting them into another tax, free vehicle that can grow those tax free and stretching that income stream over the children's and grandchildren's lifetimes. Once that decision has been made, we know which direction we're going. But sure, if we want to look at the numbers, there.

 

Evan Unzelman: going to be more compelling for the CRT we wish. This is how every decision was made, because a lot more CRTs would be created in these contexts. But so what we have. Here is the green line. The solid line is the CRT account. So we've got a million dollars coming from that IRA

Evan Unzelman: and the in the CRT option.

Evan Unzelman: that's the green line. So we that 1 million dollars goes into that CRT, that's invested investment advisor grows those tax-free. And then there's distributions. We've assumed a 5% distribution rate. Those are the vertical green lines, the distribution to the CRT beneficiaries. If we go the IRA

Evan Unzelman: we just going to give all that income to the kids over 10 years. That's the red line. So the red saw line is that IRA depleting over 10 years and then the dot, the dashed red line is, we take those IRA, take those Ira distributions, pay the tax, reinvest them.

Evan Unzelman: and then to keep things apples to apples. Let's assume that the family here take takes the same amount of income from that reinvested Ira distribution account as they would from the CRT.

Evan Unzelman: so we're looking at things, apples to apples to apples, and not surprisingly, as you can see, the Ira account eventually runs out, and the CRT continues to pay out. That tax hit that is incurred early in the life on that the red dash line is just too much for to overcome.

Evan Unzelman: So you can see the end result. We've got 1.6 million of total income for family, A, about 3.6 for family B, so more than more than double the income.

Evan Unzelman: Okay? So that we'll talk about duration and deferral. And this is, you know, when we think about again, if to kind of go back to the overall decision making process once the client has decided. Yes, II like the CRT as a vehicle to replace the old stretch. Ira. Now we're thinking about creating the CRT and 2 things that that I really want to focus on, because we just don't see this.

Evan Unzelman: We've looked at 9,000 plus CRTs my, my team has over the years, and when we see

Evan Unzelman: sort of you know, you see the good, the bad, and the ugly. When we see the bad and the ugly so often it's rooted in one of these 2 items that we'll talk about here. Not include. I mean, we developed a Jonathan mentioned at the outset the CRT Rollover technique that entire technique is based around or was developed to solve the problem of

Evan Unzelman: a client set up a CRT,

Evan Unzelman: and it's just the husband and the wife. They did not name their children as income beneficiaries. We get 1015 years out, and they wish they would have. And so we had to develop a technique to take the income interest and form a new one for their children, but they could have put their in their children on up front. So what? There's this? It's almost this knee jerk a status quo, whatever you want to call it of, we're creating a CRT. We create it for one generation. Then it goes to charity.

Evan Unzelman: and you know there's nothing wrong with this. But if the charity is creating the CRT, that's of course, in the charity's best interest, they're going to want those assets as soon as possible as soon as possible. If we're putting the kids on and the grandkids on. Of course that's delaying the assets to the charity. But from the from the taxpayers, standpoint from the client's standpoint. That's where we're looking. How do we maximize the flexibility that's available to to the donor, to the taxpayer.

Evan Unzelman: So the first part of this is duration, and, generally speaking, we want to extend the CRT duration as long as we can.

Evan Unzelman: In most cases that's 50 to 60 years.

Evan Unzelman: and we want to include as many family members as we as we can. And so when we're doing this, what we're up against is what's called the 10% remainder test. And so when we set up a CRT at least on a present value basis, 10% of what goes into the trust

Evan Unzelman: needs to be the IRS needs project that will go to charity on a present value basis. We only have to pass that up front when we're creating the trust. So the way that would work for Family B. Here we have a spouse who's 84. We have children surviving spouses. 84 children are 59, and 56, and you can see we have 4 grandkids, 34, 31, 28, and 26.

Evan Unzelman: So what we'll do is that goes into software. And that software uses the Irs. It's called the 7520 rate, and all those ages. And it's going to tell us how far we can extend the duration of this trust. So we can see in this case. You can see on the left side we have

Evan Unzelman: lifetime income beneficiaries 84, 59, 56. And now for the grandchildren, we need to go to a term. We can't run it for the grandchildren's lifetimes. But we can. We can go to a term that's going to be a maximum of 20 years. In this case that would have failed. The 10% test, we pull it back slowly until we get right at that 10. So in this case they could get it for those 3 lifetimes, 84, 59, 56 plus 18 years, 18 years and 3 months. So we're maximizing the duration of the of the CRT

Evan Unzelman: second is deferral. So from and really

Evan Unzelman:  structuring the CRT for deferral. Whether it's anticipated, it will be utilized or not, just because you're structuring the CRT for to allow the beneficiaries to defer income doesn't mean that they actually have to have to defer income. So in this case, we're going to be using what's called a net income with makeup CRUT.

Evan Unzelman: commonly called a NIMCRUT. and the income exception and makeup provision of a NIMCRUT is used to control the timing of the distributions from this from the CRT

Evan Unzelman: from the NIMCRUT. And so this is well outside the scope of this discussion. My contact information will be up at the end of. I'm happy to talk in detail about these structures, but at the at the end of the line there, at the end of row. Sort of high level. There's different ways to structure a NIMCRUT for deferral, we believe, a single member, LLC is usually the right way to go. We can use annuities and partnerships there you have

Evan Unzelman: tax disadvantages with annuity. The partnership requires an entire, a 1065, another tax return. A single member, LLC. Can be a way of achieving that deferral or the ability to defer and regulate the timing of those distributions in a simple and a less complex manner. So for our family B here.

Evan Unzelman: And this is, I would say, probably more times than not. This is the way that these will play out.

Evan Unzelman: The spouse will put that trust into deferral during the spouse's lifetime. So we have an 84 year old here. Let's say she lives to 94.

Evan Unzelman: So we have a 10 year deferral. Hopefully. That's what I put. Let me check.

Evan Unzelman: So we have a 10 year deferral period up front here. So what that does, as I mentioned earlier, is and doesn't we all know if this is growing tax free and it's not distributing out to the beneficiaries. That's

Evan Unzelman: what that's going to do is it's going to leave a larger CRT for the children to take income from, and then for the grandchildren. So we saw in this case, these are these are lifetime income streams.

Evan Unzelman: and then the grandchildren's are going to be limited to that 18 year term. I should have mentioned this earlier on duration. Well, what if there's 3 kids or 4 kids? What if the children were younger?

Evan Unzelman: No problem. We just have to adjust the planning. So some cases, if we have, you know, 4 children, we may need to use multiple CRTs that as long as this is all done in sort of the same plan, and we're using the same administrator. It's not much more complex or costly. In some cases it's not at all more complex or costly to have multiple CRTs versus just one CRT,

Evan Unzelman: so we don't want to sacrifice just. We don't want to sacrifice extending duration and including additional family members. Just because we don't want to have 2 CRTs instead of one or 3 CRTs instead of one. This is all possible, as long as the planning is done upfront. Once the client passes away, that ir a owner passes away and that CRT is funded.

Evan Unzelman: it's irrevocable. None of those terms can be changed. So we want to put. We've need to put all that flexibility in upfront. So we don't end up regretting it. the errors don't end up regretting it down the road.

Evan Unzelman: So what we've done here just to put. Well, first we'll look at the as I mentioned.

Evan Unzelman: Yeah, 1 min. So I'm almost done here. I'm keeping us on schedule, Johnathan. So as I mentioned, we've got that deferral period that 10 year deferral period. You can see, instead of kind of that, the bar that we saw earlier here. What that does is because it's not. There's no distributions it it's able to. The investment advisor gets that upfront tax free compounding that tax free growth. So we've got a larger CRT, so we have more income here. So we've gone from

Evan Unzelman: 3.6 of income to family B to 5 north of 5.2. So it's we're able to create more income for errors because of that upfront deferral period.

Evan Unzelman: Alright. So just to put a bow on everything we're using the CRT to restore the stretch

Evan Unzelman: has to be done during the client's lifetime. There's different ways of doing it funded CRT, unfunded CRT, testamentary trust.

Evan Unzelman: In some cases the the spouse or the spouse will be an income beneficiary of the CRT. In some cases it may be going directly to the children and grandchildren. And when we're designing that CRT, when we're putting that CRT in place, we want to maximize the duration of the CRT and give the client

Evan Unzelman: where it's anticipated, even if it's if it's if it's not a if it's not

Evan Unzelman: 100% going to be anticipated. If it's possible that the deferral, the ability to defer income might be desired. Let's structure that CRT, to allow that. So that the heirs have that ability when they are the beneficiaries of the CRT,

Evan Unzelman: so hopefully, this has been informative for everyone. My contact information is up on the screen. Do not hesitate to reach out. I'm happy to have discussions around any of what we've talked about. Here today, or just CRTs in general. And thank you, Jonathan, as always, for the opportunity.

Jonathan Shenkman: Great. Thank you so much, Evan. If anyone has any specific questions, new business opportunities, or any other issues I like to discuss, please feel free to reach out to Evan directly or myself where appropriate, and I'll be here to include his contact information in a follow up email to this program as well as I mentioned at the onset the goal of these programs to stay up to date on timely wealth management, related topics, and to collaborate where appropriate. I think we can all agree that the clients who are best prepared are the ones who are served by team of knowledgeable advisors. 3 more quick items before I let you go

Jonathan Shenkman: first. My Winter Webinar series continues on February 20, ninth, on estate planning for US. Clients who own assets or have descendants in other countries with a special focus on Israel featuring Avi Kestenbaum, partner and Melter, Lippi, Goldstein and Brightestone, based in New York. I'll send out an invitation to this program in the coming days. In the meantime, if you have a friend, colleague, or client who like to be notified in my upcoming webinars.

Jonathan Shenkman: they can just email me with the word webinar on the subject line, and I'll add them to my webinar distribution list. My email is Jonathan at at Parkbridge. wealth.com. Second, you can follow all my work on Twitter and Instagram at Jonathan on money. You could also listen to my weekly podcast called Jonathan on money, which is available on apple spotify wherever you get your podcast

Jonathan Shenkman: and you can also watch my new daily financial planning videos by following me on Youtube, add Jonathan on money as well. And third, please take 30 s to fill out my survey at the end of this program, and helps me improve my webinars and provide timely and interesting content to attendees, and I thank you in advance for that. And with that this concludes today's session. Please stay safe and healthy and have a wonderful day. Everybody.

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